Allan Nordhøy
2015-06-18 19:46:26 UTC
Spacefalcon, I find it strange to care about active copyright, which is
what makes the distinction between abandonware and _not_ abandonware, but
at the same time not care about what protects those same rights just
because you feel justified in doing it.
For someone to renounce their citizenship over it, I don't know if that's a
separate issue, but at no point does it actually become feasible. Your
self-imposed group, is not about to get any bigger, so we are back to
considering the project as it is.
Meanwhile to the copyright-holders you are a vulture, with no protection.
To the free software people, you are tarnishing what they have a vested
interest in, the difference they make.
A difference you use to even get your project off the ground. At the very
least you could climb off your low horse and ask TI for permission.
what makes the distinction between abandonware and _not_ abandonware, but
at the same time not care about what protects those same rights just
because you feel justified in doing it.
For someone to renounce their citizenship over it, I don't know if that's a
separate issue, but at no point does it actually become feasible. Your
self-imposed group, is not about to get any bigger, so we are back to
considering the project as it is.
Meanwhile to the copyright-holders you are a vulture, with no protection.
To the free software people, you are tarnishing what they have a vested
interest in, the difference they make.
A difference you use to even get your project off the ground. At the very
least you could climb off your low horse and ask TI for permission.
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1. Re: Arduino phone. (Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller)
2. Re: Arduino phone. (Paul Kocialkowski)
3. Re: Arduino phone. (Paul Kocialkowski)
4. Re: Arduino phone. (Spacefalcon the Outlaw)
5. Re: Arduino phone. (Paul Kocialkowski)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2015 18:01:40 +0200
Subject: Re: Arduino phone.
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
Am 18.06.2015 um 17:48 schrieb Spacefalcon the Outlaw <
No, I don't know who, if anyone, claims to be a successor in interest
to the abandonware that used to be belong to the long-defunct TI's
Wireless Terminal Business Unit. I don't even know what country or
countries that defunct entity was based in, but it almost certainly
wasn't USA. The only TI I know of is the one in Dallas, Texas, USA,
but to the best of my knowledge they never had anything to do with the
cellular baseband chipset business.
They were the owner of the subsidiary and automatically inherit all
property
if a subsidiary is closed. So they are the rightful owners. Unless they
sold
it so someone - but that, they can tell. If asked.
My people are those who have renounced their citizenship in all
countries, do not consider themselves to be bound by laws of man, and
are prepared to die at any instant in a gunfire exchange with the
police while resisting arrest and defending our right to live on
planet Earth outside of any countries as sovereign individuals.
Your people (same as Josh's people) are the rest.
I do my FreeCalypso work for my people, not for your and Josh's people.
If any of your people would like to use it too, finding a way to do so
in a way that is compatible with those laws which you voluntarily
choose to obey is a problem for *you* to solve, not for me.
Ok, then please stay on the mailing list for your people, if you don?t care
about us and our problems/concerns.
BR,
Nikolaus
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2015 19:32:33 +0200
Subject: Re: Arduino phone.
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
still runs proprietary software, so I would say it's pretty
dishonest to call it a free or open source phone. It's a free shim
around a closed processor that does all the heavy lifting, and is
completely empowered to betray you. Admittedly, though, GSM has
plenty of unavoidable surveillance built in - is that the reason so
few people seem to care about free modems, do you think, or is it
just because it's such a herculean task?
I agree with you here -- all of this is simply wiring a modem to a
microcontroller, there is nothing new here. The modem itself is a
Quectel M10: http://www.quectel.com/product/prodetail.aspx?id=14
There is no indication that it's running free software.
--
Paul Kocialkowski, Replicant developer
Replicant is a fully free Android distribution running on several
devices, a free software mobile operating system putting the emphasis on
freedom and privacy/security.
Website: http://www.replicant.us/
Blog: http://blog.replicant.us/
Wiki/tracker/forums: http://redmine.replicant.us/
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Message: 3
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2015 19:36:07 +0200
Subject: Re: Arduino phone.
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Second, I have no idea who the copyright holders are. It is none of
my concern. If *you* care about legalities, then *you* need to do the
research of figuring out who the copyright holders might be and then
give them your firstborn or whatever it is they are going to ask for
in exchange for releasing their ancient abandonware under a license
which *you* would consider to be free.
Why don't YOU do it? It is not reasonable to ask me (someone who
absolutely does not care about legalities) to do it, instead it needs
to be done by someone who does care - you, for example.
I have sent you a long email more than a week ago about why I think all
of that matters for the users and didn't get a response. Perhaps you
should consider reading it.
It may be that you don't care about all those legal aspects, but most
other people do. Hence, your effort is worthless for all those people.
Now if you want to be breaking the law in your corner, that's fine, but
I really think we should try to push OsmocomBB forward as much as
possible for the rest of us!
And that's not even to mention how your project could reflect badly on
OsmocomBB development?
--
Paul Kocialkowski, Replicant developer
Replicant is a fully free Android distribution running on several
devices, a free software mobile operating system putting the emphasis on
freedom and privacy/security.
Website: http://www.replicant.us/
Blog: http://blog.replicant.us/
Wiki/tracker/forums: http://redmine.replicant.us/
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------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2015 18:20:35 GMT
Subject: Re: Arduino phone.
chasm in philosophical basis between you and I such that neither of us
will ever change the other's position.
You will never, ever, ever be able to convince me to drop my
FreeCalypso work and switch my efforts to OsmocomBB. It will never,
ever, ever happen - NEVER! The only way you'll be able to stop my
FreeCalypso work is by killing me - and even then you might not
succeed in killing the project as some other people are already
starting to see FreeCalypso as more promising than OsmocomBB, and it
is entirely possible that someone else will pick up my work and bring
it to completion. (FreeCalypso has its own active community now, in
case you didn't know.)
that we are willing to take a little bit of risk to our personal
safety by breaking a couple of laws which we reasonably believe to be
practically unenforceable.
phone in my purse which meets *my* criteria of free, and I work toward
the realization of that goal in the only way that is within my
capabilities.
I share my work freely with the world so that those who like it can
use it, but if you don't like my work, then don't use it - it's that
simple. Don't buy my hardware and don't download my software if you
don't like it or if you find it incompatible with some law(s) you've
chosen to obey.
who gets to the finish line first. (The finish line being a phone
which an user can usably carry in his pocket or her purse.)
Are you aware of the fact that the state of OsmocomBB today is
*exactly* the same as it was at the end of 2010? If you need proof,
look at the video of the presentation about OsmocomBB at CCC which was
some time in December of 2010 - what was presented there is exactly
the same as what it can do today. Zero progress in 4.5 years.
sink into irrelevant oblivion, most of us FreeCalypso-using pirates
will say "good riddance".
VLR,
SF
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2015 20:41:27 +0200
Subject: Re: Arduino phone.
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
chasm in philosophical basis between you and I such that neither of us
will ever change the other's position.
There are still a few points that you might want to consider that are
not related to legal issues. For instance, the fact that using the TI
codebase might bring a serious trust and security issue.
seems like a waste of time and ressources to me, but that's about as far
as it goes. Except for the potential bad influence on OsmocomBB.
Note that I am not the biggest fan of copyright laws and all the things
you decided to reject. I simply believe complying with those is the only
safe way to achieve anything substantial, that will last in the long
term. There are also technical and security-related reasons why I prefer
OsmocomBB over your project, as I mentioned already.
that we are willing to take a little bit of risk to our personal
safety by breaking a couple of laws which we reasonably believe to be
practically unenforceable.
Fair enough, I fully agree here.
phone in my purse which meets *my* criteria of free, and I work toward
the realization of that goal in the only way that is within my
capabilities.
Same here, we're on the same page.
lacks any kind of copyright notice regarding the code you produced. This
makes sense from your point of view but then again, puts basically
everyone who doesn't both agree with you and trust you at risk.
You may sue anybody for using your work at the moment. Our belief in
your good faith is the only security we have against that. I'm not
saying it is worthless since I would personally trust you with that, but
I think it should be clear for everyone what the legal situation is.
Free software, as defined by the FSF, has legal grounds. If you remove
those (and all the guarantees that come with them), it becomes very
confusing to say that your project is free software. Perhaps you should
put the emphasis on that aspect (since you're already talking at length
about how you don't care about the laws) so that it's clear to everyone.
who gets to the finish line first. (The finish line being a phone
which an user can usably carry in his pocket or her purse.)
Are you aware of the fact that the state of OsmocomBB today is
*exactly* the same as it was at the end of 2010? If you need proof,
look at the video of the presentation about OsmocomBB at CCC which was
some time in December of 2010 - what was presented there is exactly
the same as what it can do today. Zero progress in 4.5 years.
Well, it isn't projects like yours that are going to boost its
development! Still, I have to agree with you and I'm a bit saddened that
OsmocomBB looks more like a hobbyist project than a project with the
final goal of freeing end users and delivering something usable.
sink into irrelevant oblivion, most of us FreeCalypso-using pirates
will say "good riddance".
Surely, you could take into account how it affects other people,
regardless of the legal considerations involved. Doing harm to people,
even for reasons that seem righteous, is still doing harm to people.
I don't think you should ignore the possibility that your project may
free a small percentage of people and doom the rest of us by making
contributions to OsmocomBB impossible to manage.
--
Paul Kocialkowski, Replicant developer
Replicant is a fully free Android distribution running on several
devices, a free software mobile operating system putting the emphasis on
freedom and privacy/security.
Website: http://www.replicant.us/
Blog: http://blog.replicant.us/
Wiki/tracker/forums: http://redmine.replicant.us/
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When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of Replicant digest..."
1. Re: Arduino phone. (Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller)
2. Re: Arduino phone. (Paul Kocialkowski)
3. Re: Arduino phone. (Paul Kocialkowski)
4. Re: Arduino phone. (Spacefalcon the Outlaw)
5. Re: Arduino phone. (Paul Kocialkowski)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2015 18:01:40 +0200
Subject: Re: Arduino phone.
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
Am 18.06.2015 um 17:48 schrieb Spacefalcon the Outlaw <
Second, I have no idea who the copyright holders are. =
Well, you know them. Don=92t make yourself look uneducated.to the abandonware that used to be belong to the long-defunct TI's
Wireless Terminal Business Unit. I don't even know what country or
countries that defunct entity was based in, but it almost certainly
wasn't USA. The only TI I know of is the one in Dallas, Texas, USA,
but to the best of my knowledge they never had anything to do with the
cellular baseband chipset business.
property
if a subsidiary is closed. So they are the rightful owners. Unless they
sold
it so someone - but that, they can tell. If asked.
I am not a lawyer and don't even
play one on TV, and "international law" concepts like whether or not
TI-country-X is the same company as TI-country-Y are well outside of
my area of competence.
instead they reside on multiple public FTP and HTTP servers around the
world, and everyone in the entire world has equally free access to
them.
Why do you then make it available to us? On servers with free access?play one on TV, and "international law" concepts like whether or not
TI-country-X is the same company as TI-country-Y are well outside of
my area of competence.
He does not have the source files.
No individual person (neither Josh nor me nor anyone else) "has" them;instead they reside on multiple public FTP and HTTP servers around the
world, and everyone in the entire world has equally free access to
them.
He does not claim that it is =93free=94 or =93open=94.
It is you.
My work is free and open for *my people*. Not for you and your people.It is you.
So why should he do it for you?
Not for me, but for his and your people.My people are those who have renounced their citizenship in all
countries, do not consider themselves to be bound by laws of man, and
are prepared to die at any instant in a gunfire exchange with the
police while resisting arrest and defending our right to live on
planet Earth outside of any countries as sovereign individuals.
Your people (same as Josh's people) are the rest.
I do my FreeCalypso work for my people, not for your and Josh's people.
If any of your people would like to use it too, finding a way to do so
in a way that is compatible with those laws which you voluntarily
choose to obey is a problem for *you* to solve, not for me.
about us and our problems/concerns.
BR,
Nikolaus
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2015 19:32:33 +0200
Subject: Re: Arduino phone.
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
http://web.media.mit.edu/~mellis/cellphone/
How is it more free than a normal replicant device? The GSM modulestill runs proprietary software, so I would say it's pretty
dishonest to call it a free or open source phone. It's a free shim
around a closed processor that does all the heavy lifting, and is
completely empowered to betray you. Admittedly, though, GSM has
plenty of unavoidable surveillance built in - is that the reason so
few people seem to care about free modems, do you think, or is it
just because it's such a herculean task?
microcontroller, there is nothing new here. The modem itself is a
Quectel M10: http://www.quectel.com/product/prodetail.aspx?id=14
There is no indication that it's running free software.
--
Paul Kocialkowski, Replicant developer
Replicant is a fully free Android distribution running on several
devices, a free software mobile operating system putting the emphasis on
freedom and privacy/security.
Website: http://www.replicant.us/
Blog: http://blog.replicant.us/
Wiki/tracker/forums: http://redmine.replicant.us/
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------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2015 19:36:07 +0200
Subject: Re: Arduino phone.
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Last time ?SpaceFalcon? was on this list I suggested he got permission
to use the source code from the copyright holders. I'm not sure if he
listened.
https://www.freecalypso.org/pipermail/community/2015-May/000016.htmlto use the source code from the copyright holders. I'm not sure if he
listened.
Second, I have no idea who the copyright holders are. It is none of
my concern. If *you* care about legalities, then *you* need to do the
research of figuring out who the copyright holders might be and then
give them your firstborn or whatever it is they are going to ask for
in exchange for releasing their ancient abandonware under a license
which *you* would consider to be free.
Why don't YOU do it? It is not reasonable to ask me (someone who
absolutely does not care about legalities) to do it, instead it needs
to be done by someone who does care - you, for example.
of that matters for the users and didn't get a response. Perhaps you
should consider reading it.
It may be that you don't care about all those legal aspects, but most
other people do. Hence, your effort is worthless for all those people.
Now if you want to be breaking the law in your corner, that's fine, but
I really think we should try to push OsmocomBB forward as much as
possible for the rest of us!
And that's not even to mention how your project could reflect badly on
OsmocomBB development?
--
Paul Kocialkowski, Replicant developer
Replicant is a fully free Android distribution running on several
devices, a free software mobile operating system putting the emphasis on
freedom and privacy/security.
Website: http://www.replicant.us/
Blog: http://blog.replicant.us/
Wiki/tracker/forums: http://redmine.replicant.us/
-------------- next part --------------
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------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2015 18:20:35 GMT
Subject: Re: Arduino phone.
I have sent you a long email more than a week ago about why I think all
of that matters for the users and didn't get a response. Perhaps you
should consider reading it.
I read it, but saw no point in responding as there is a fundamentalof that matters for the users and didn't get a response. Perhaps you
should consider reading it.
chasm in philosophical basis between you and I such that neither of us
will ever change the other's position.
You will never, ever, ever be able to convince me to drop my
FreeCalypso work and switch my efforts to OsmocomBB. It will never,
ever, ever happen - NEVER! The only way you'll be able to stop my
FreeCalypso work is by killing me - and even then you might not
succeed in killing the project as some other people are already
starting to see FreeCalypso as more promising than OsmocomBB, and it
is entirely possible that someone else will pick up my work and bring
it to completion. (FreeCalypso has its own active community now, in
case you didn't know.)
It may be that you don't care about all those legal aspects, but most
other people do.
Most != all. Some of us want a source-enabled dumbphone badly enoughother people do.
that we are willing to take a little bit of risk to our personal
safety by breaking a couple of laws which we reasonably believe to be
practically unenforceable.
Hence, your effort is worthless for all those people.
I am not seeking to win a popularity contest, I simply seek to have aphone in my purse which meets *my* criteria of free, and I work toward
the realization of that goal in the only way that is within my
capabilities.
I share my work freely with the world so that those who like it can
use it, but if you don't like my work, then don't use it - it's that
simple. Don't buy my hardware and don't download my software if you
don't like it or if you find it incompatible with some law(s) you've
chosen to obey.
I really think we should try to push OsmocomBB forward as much as
possible for the rest of us!
And while you do that, I'll keep working on FreeCalypso. Let's seepossible for the rest of us!
who gets to the finish line first. (The finish line being a phone
which an user can usably carry in his pocket or her purse.)
Are you aware of the fact that the state of OsmocomBB today is
*exactly* the same as it was at the end of 2010? If you need proof,
look at the video of the presentation about OsmocomBB at CCC which was
some time in December of 2010 - what was presented there is exactly
the same as what it can do today. Zero progress in 4.5 years.
And that's not even to mention how your project could reflect badly on
OsmocomBB development=E2=80=A6
Their problem, not ours as the FreeCalypso community. Should OsmocomBBOsmocomBB development=E2=80=A6
sink into irrelevant oblivion, most of us FreeCalypso-using pirates
will say "good riddance".
VLR,
SF
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2015 20:41:27 +0200
Subject: Re: Arduino phone.
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
I have sent you a long email more than a week ago about why I think all
of that matters for the users and didn't get a response. Perhaps you
should consider reading it.
I read it, but saw no point in responding as there is a fundamentalof that matters for the users and didn't get a response. Perhaps you
should consider reading it.
chasm in philosophical basis between you and I such that neither of us
will ever change the other's position.
not related to legal issues. For instance, the fact that using the TI
codebase might bring a serious trust and security issue.
You will never, ever, ever be able to convince me to drop my
FreeCalypso work and switch my efforts to OsmocomBB. It will never,
ever, ever happen - NEVER! The only way you'll be able to stop my
FreeCalypso work is by killing me - and even then you might not
succeed in killing the project as some other people are already
starting to see FreeCalypso as more promising than OsmocomBB, and it
is entirely possible that someone else will pick up my work and bring
it to completion. (FreeCalypso has its own active community now, in
case you didn't know.)
I don't have a problem with your project being alive and well. It justFreeCalypso work and switch my efforts to OsmocomBB. It will never,
ever, ever happen - NEVER! The only way you'll be able to stop my
FreeCalypso work is by killing me - and even then you might not
succeed in killing the project as some other people are already
starting to see FreeCalypso as more promising than OsmocomBB, and it
is entirely possible that someone else will pick up my work and bring
it to completion. (FreeCalypso has its own active community now, in
case you didn't know.)
seems like a waste of time and ressources to me, but that's about as far
as it goes. Except for the potential bad influence on OsmocomBB.
Note that I am not the biggest fan of copyright laws and all the things
you decided to reject. I simply believe complying with those is the only
safe way to achieve anything substantial, that will last in the long
term. There are also technical and security-related reasons why I prefer
OsmocomBB over your project, as I mentioned already.
It may be that you don't care about all those legal aspects, but most
other people do.
Most != all. Some of us want a source-enabled dumbphone badly enoughother people do.
that we are willing to take a little bit of risk to our personal
safety by breaking a couple of laws which we reasonably believe to be
practically unenforceable.
Hence, your effort is worthless for all those people.
I am not seeking to win a popularity contest, I simply seek to have aphone in my purse which meets *my* criteria of free, and I work toward
the realization of that goal in the only way that is within my
capabilities.
I share my work freely with the world so that those who like it can
use it, but if you don't like my work, then don't use it - it's that
simple. Don't buy my hardware and don't download my software if you
don't like it or if you find it incompatible with some law(s) you've
chosen to obey.
Right. I also mentioned that your project is not free software since ituse it, but if you don't like my work, then don't use it - it's that
simple. Don't buy my hardware and don't download my software if you
don't like it or if you find it incompatible with some law(s) you've
chosen to obey.
lacks any kind of copyright notice regarding the code you produced. This
makes sense from your point of view but then again, puts basically
everyone who doesn't both agree with you and trust you at risk.
You may sue anybody for using your work at the moment. Our belief in
your good faith is the only security we have against that. I'm not
saying it is worthless since I would personally trust you with that, but
I think it should be clear for everyone what the legal situation is.
Free software, as defined by the FSF, has legal grounds. If you remove
those (and all the guarantees that come with them), it becomes very
confusing to say that your project is free software. Perhaps you should
put the emphasis on that aspect (since you're already talking at length
about how you don't care about the laws) so that it's clear to everyone.
I really think we should try to push OsmocomBB forward as much as
possible for the rest of us!
And while you do that, I'll keep working on FreeCalypso. Let's seepossible for the rest of us!
who gets to the finish line first. (The finish line being a phone
which an user can usably carry in his pocket or her purse.)
Are you aware of the fact that the state of OsmocomBB today is
*exactly* the same as it was at the end of 2010? If you need proof,
look at the video of the presentation about OsmocomBB at CCC which was
some time in December of 2010 - what was presented there is exactly
the same as what it can do today. Zero progress in 4.5 years.
development! Still, I have to agree with you and I'm a bit saddened that
OsmocomBB looks more like a hobbyist project than a project with the
final goal of freeing end users and delivering something usable.
And that's not even to mention how your project could reflect badly on
OsmocomBB development=E2=80=A6
Their problem, not ours as the FreeCalypso community. Should OsmocomBBOsmocomBB development=E2=80=A6
sink into irrelevant oblivion, most of us FreeCalypso-using pirates
will say "good riddance".
regardless of the legal considerations involved. Doing harm to people,
even for reasons that seem righteous, is still doing harm to people.
I don't think you should ignore the possibility that your project may
free a small percentage of people and doom the rest of us by making
contributions to OsmocomBB impossible to manage.
--
Paul Kocialkowski, Replicant developer
Replicant is a fully free Android distribution running on several
devices, a free software mobile operating system putting the emphasis on
freedom and privacy/security.
Website: http://www.replicant.us/
Blog: http://blog.replicant.us/
Wiki/tracker/forums: http://redmine.replicant.us/
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End of Replicant Digest, Vol 138, Issue 4
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