[Replicant] regarding future

[Denis 'GNUtoo' Carikli]

On Sat, 1 Oct 2016 21:44:31 +0000
E L <***@hotmail.com> wrote:

> Friends at replicant,
Hi,
The contact mailing list is for private inquiries only.

This seem to be a non-private question, so I forwarded to the mailing
list.

> I have a quick question for you. How close do you think you are for
> implementing wifi into the replicant OS on the galaxy s2 / s3 ?
This requires to replace the non-free WiFi firmware.

> also in terms of performance long term support and most active
> development would you say that is on galaxy s2 or the galaxy s3 ? I
> just want to ensure I buy the device that is being worked on the most
> so its supported for my newbie like needs.
Given that Wolfgang has the Galaxy S3 and is working on porting
Replicant to Android 6, and is also trying to mainline that device in
Linux, I would bet on the Galaxy S3.

Some other devices that are not (fully) supported by Replicant yet are
also attractive:
- The LG Optimus black (p970):
- Free software bootloader
- Non-free WiFi/Bluetooth firmwares => WiFi/Bluetooth won't work.
- Some support in mainline u-boot (no display support though).
- Some very early/basic support in Linux: No display, sound, etc.
The display seem non-trivial to support in Linux, so there is a
risk that it will never be done.
- Work to port it on Replicant hasn't started yet.
Since we want to use mainline Linux, we also need the display,
sound, etc to work in it first.
- Undocumented GPS[1].
- The GTA04 (revisions > A3 [2]):
- Free software bootloader (not upstreamed).
- Non-free WiFi/Bluetooth firmwares => WiFi/Bluetooth won't work.
- Good support in mainline Linux. Probably not totally complete.
- Very well documented, schematics published by the manufacturer.

References:
-----------
[1]https://redmine.replicant.us/projects/replicant/wiki/BCM4751
[2]The A3 and earlier were meant for early developers and have some
hardware issues. As for the A3:
- The modem cannot be powered off which makes it consume power when
the phone is off.
- The modem is only available as a software sound card, and hardware
routing of the audio is not available.
The revisions before the A3 were very early bring-up devices and are
probably not usable.

Denis.

[H. Nikolaus Schaller]

Hi,

> Am 04.10.2016 um 15:58 schrieb Denis 'GNUtoo' Carikli <***@no-log.org>:
>
> On Sat, 1 Oct 2016 21:44:31 +0000
> E L <***@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Friends at replicant,
> Hi,
> The contact mailing list is for private inquiries only.
>
> This seem to be a non-private question, so I forwarded to the mailing
> list.
>
>> I have a quick question for you. How close do you think you are for
>> implementing wifi into the replicant OS on the galaxy s2 / s3 ?
> This requires to replace the non-free WiFi firmware.
>
>> also in terms of performance long term support and most active
>> development would you say that is on galaxy s2 or the galaxy s3 ? I
>> just want to ensure I buy the device that is being worked on the most
>> so its supported for my newbie like needs.
> Given that Wolfgang has the Galaxy S3 and is working on porting
> Replicant to Android 6, and is also trying to mainline that device in
> Linux, I would bet on the Galaxy S3.
>
> Some other devices that are not (fully) supported by Replicant yet are
> also attractive:
> - The LG Optimus black (p970):
> - Free software bootloader
> - Non-free WiFi/Bluetooth firmwares => WiFi/Bluetooth won't work.
> - Some support in mainline u-boot (no display support though).
> - Some very early/basic support in Linux: No display, sound, etc.
> The display seem non-trivial to support in Linux, so there is a
> risk that it will never be done.
> - Work to port it on Replicant hasn't started yet.
> Since we want to use mainline Linux, we also need the display,
> sound, etc to work in it first.
> - Undocumented GPS[1].
> - The GTA04 (revisions > A3 [2]):
> - Free software bootloader (not upstreamed).

It is e.g. here:

https://github.com/goldelico/gta04-uboot

> - Non-free WiFi/Bluetooth firmwares => WiFi/Bluetooth won't work.

Well, the BT part of the combined module has firmware built into
the module so it can be considered "hardware". It is simply running
HCI over UART when powered on.

This will unfortunately change a little with the new GTA04A5 release
which uses a TI WiLink8 module (the old one is no longer available).
This appears to load combined firmware for both WiFi and Bluetooth.
But I may be wrong.

There is also "gta04-replicant", i.e. a branch which includes the
firmware (like Debian non-free) to make these features useable.

> - Good support in mainline Linux. Probably not totally complete.

Let's say: almost complete :) We are constantly working on it.

> - Very well documented, schematics published by the manufacturer.
>
> References:
> -----------
> [1]https://redmine.replicant.us/projects/replicant/wiki/BCM4751
> [2]The A3 and earlier were meant for early developers and have some
> hardware issues. As for the A3:
> - The modem cannot be powered off which makes it consume power when
> the phone is off.
> - The modem is only available as a software sound card, and hardware
> routing of the audio is not available.
> The revisions before the A3 were very early bring-up devices and are
> probably not usable.

Both A2 and A3 are mainly irrelevant today. There have been only 2 GTA04A2
units built and ~20 GTA04A3. So only some early developers own them.

Almost all devices in the wild are GTA04A4.

BR,
Nikolaus

[E L]

thanks for your insightful response ya'll!
makes me want to buy the c201!
totally going to grab the s3 now
________________________________________
From: H. Nikolaus Schaller [***@goldelico.com]
Sent: October 4, 2016 8:15 AM
To: Denis 'GNUtoo' Carikli
Cc: E L; replicant
Subject: Re: [Replicant] regarding future

Hi,

> Am 04.10.2016 um 15:58 schrieb Denis 'GNUtoo' Carikli <***@no-log.org>:
>
> On Sat, 1 Oct 2016 21:44:31 +0000
> E L <***@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Friends at replicant,
> Hi,
> The contact mailing list is for private inquiries only.
>
> This seem to be a non-private question, so I forwarded to the mailing
> list.
>
>> I have a quick question for you. How close do you think you are for
>> implementing wifi into the replicant OS on the galaxy s2 / s3 ?
> This requires to replace the non-free WiFi firmware.
>
>> also in terms of performance long term support and most active
>> development would you say that is on galaxy s2 or the galaxy s3 ? I
>> just want to ensure I buy the device that is being worked on the most
>> so its supported for my newbie like needs.
> Given that Wolfgang has the Galaxy S3 and is working on porting
> Replicant to Android 6, and is also trying to mainline that device in
> Linux, I would bet on the Galaxy S3.
>
> Some other devices that are not (fully) supported by Replicant yet are
> also attractive:
> - The LG Optimus black (p970):
> - Free software bootloader
> - Non-free WiFi/Bluetooth firmwares => WiFi/Bluetooth won't work.
> - Some support in mainline u-boot (no display support though).
> - Some very early/basic support in Linux: No display, sound, etc.
> The display seem non-trivial to support in Linux, so there is a
> risk that it will never be done.
> - Work to port it on Replicant hasn't started yet.
> Since we want to use mainline Linux, we also need the display,
> sound, etc to work in it first.
> - Undocumented GPS[1].
> - The GTA04 (revisions > A3 [2]):
> - Free software bootloader (not upstreamed).

It is e.g. here:

https://github.com/goldelico/gta04-uboot

> - Non-free WiFi/Bluetooth firmwares => WiFi/Bluetooth won't work.

Well, the BT part of the combined module has firmware built into
the module so it can be considered "hardware". It is simply running
HCI over UART when powered on.

This will unfortunately change a little with the new GTA04A5 release
which uses a TI WiLink8 module (the old one is no longer available).
This appears to load combined firmware for both WiFi and Bluetooth.
But I may be wrong.

There is also "gta04-replicant", i.e. a branch which includes the
firmware (like Debian non-free) to make these features useable.

> - Good support in mainline Linux. Probably not totally complete.

Let's say: almost complete :) We are constantly working on it.

> - Very well documented, schematics published by the manufacturer.
>
> References:
> -----------
> [1]https://redmine.replicant.us/projects/replicant/wiki/BCM4751
> [2]The A3 and earlier were meant for early developers and have some
> hardware issues. As for the A3:
> - The modem cannot be powered off which makes it consume power when
> the phone is off.
> - The modem is only available as a software sound card, and hardware
> routing of the audio is not available.
> The revisions before the A3 were very early bring-up devices and are
> probably not usable.

Both A2 and A3 are mainly irrelevant today. There have been only 2 GTA04A2
units built and ~20 GTA04A3. So only some early developers own them.

Almost all devices in the wild are GTA04A4.

BR,
Nikolaus

[Kurtis Hanna]

>> I have a quick question for you. How close do you think you are for
>> implementing wifi into the replicant OS on the galaxy s2 / s3 ?
> This requires to replace the non-free WiFi firmware.

Wifi has been verified to work on the s2 using an external wifi usb dongle.
https://wiki.tehnoetic.com/doku.php?id=tehnoetic_wifi_replicant

It might work on the s3 as well, but I don't think anyone has tested it
out yet.

ryf.fsf.org says that the The TET-N150 wireless USB adapter is the same
as the TPE-N150USB Wireless N USB Adapter, from what I'm reading. I only
have the TPE-N150USB and an s3 right now, so I might try to get this
working in the near future. Has anyone else dinked around with any of
this yet?

In Solidarity,
Kurtis

[Bob Ham]

On Tue, 2016-10-04 at 15:58 +0200, Denis 'GNUtoo' Carikli wrote:

> Given that Wolfgang has the Galaxy S3 and is working on porting
> Replicant to Android 6, and is also trying to mainline that device in
> Linux, I would bet on the Galaxy S3.

I'm curious about an effort to mainline support for the S3. Could you
say how you learned about Wolfgang's effort?

Thanks,

Bob

[Dika Setya Prayogi]

how about some port like android x86 ?, it is more universal and can
be installed in hdd

[Josh Branning]

On 19/10/16 16:08, Dika Setya Prayogi wrote:
> how about some port like android x86 ?, it is more universal and can
> be installed in hdd
> _______________________________________________
> Replicant mailing list
> ***@lists.osuosl.org
> http://lists.osuosl.org/mailman/listinfo/replicant
>

Correct me if I'm wrong.

But I think the thing with android x86, is that any apps that contain
non-bytecode languages would need to be recompiled for that platform.

Josh

[Bob Ham]

On Wed, 2016-10-19 at 09:54 +0100, Bob Ham wrote:
> On Tue, 2016-10-04 at 15:58 +0200, Denis 'GNUtoo' Carikli wrote:
>
> > Given that Wolfgang has the Galaxy S3 and is working on porting
> > Replicant to Android 6, and is also trying to mainline that device in
> > Linux, I would bet on the Galaxy S3.
>
> I'm curious about an effort to mainline support for the S3. Could you
> say how you learned about Wolfgang's effort?

ping?

[Simon Josefsson]

Bob Ham <***@settrans.net> writes:

> On Wed, 2016-10-19 at 09:54 +0100, Bob Ham wrote:
>> On Tue, 2016-10-04 at 15:58 +0200, Denis 'GNUtoo' Carikli wrote:
>>
>> > Given that Wolfgang has the Galaxy S3 and is working on porting
>> > Replicant to Android 6, and is also trying to mainline that device in
>> > Linux, I would bet on the Galaxy S3.
>>
>> I'm curious about an effort to mainline support for the S3. Could you
>> say how you learned about Wolfgang's effort?
>
> ping?

Are you referring to links like these:

http://blog.replicant.us/2016/08/replicant-6-early-work-upstream-work-and-f-droid-issue/

https://redmine.replicant.us/boards/21/topics/12057

I'm using my own build of Wolfgang's source tree on my daily phone since
2016-09-08, see post below. I got GPS to work as well, see my snippet
at https://gitlab.com/snippets/25705

http://lists.osuosl.org/pipermail/replicant/Week-of-Mon-20160905/001086.html

The only annoyance not mentioned in that post that I experience is that
the GUI "locks up" for a second or two sometimes, usually when I click a
back button or the home button. I suspect it is trying to do something
(a screenshot?) that fails and times out. Other than that, and the
things mentioned in the earlier post, things appear to work just as good
or bad as the Android 4.2 0004 release for me.

/Simon

[Bob Ham]

On Fri, 2016-10-28 at 08:50 +0200, Simon Josefsson wrote:
> Bob Ham <***@settrans.net> writes:
>
> > On Wed, 2016-10-19 at 09:54 +0100, Bob Ham wrote:
> >> On Tue, 2016-10-04 at 15:58 +0200, Denis 'GNUtoo' Carikli wrote:
> >>
> >> > Given that Wolfgang has the Galaxy S3 and is working on porting
> >> > Replicant to Android 6, and is also trying to mainline that device in
> >> > Linux, I would bet on the Galaxy S3.
> >>
> >> I'm curious about an effort to mainline support for the S3. Could you
> >> say how you learned about Wolfgang's effort?
> >
> > ping?
>
> Are you referring to links like these:
>
> http://blog.replicant.us/2016/08/replicant-6-early-work-upstream-work-and-f-droid-issue/
>
> https://redmine.replicant.us/boards/21/topics/12057

No.

I've seen both of these pages before. The first mentions the hope of
using mainline kernel in general but doesn't mention any specific effort
to mainline support for the S3. The second page, again, makes no
mention of mainlining S3 support.

Denis will be able to answer precisely so we don't really need to play
guessing games :-)

*hint*hint* ;-)

[Wolfgang Wiedmeyer]

Bob Ham writes:

> On Fri, 2016-10-28 at 08:50 +0200, Simon Josefsson wrote:
>> Bob Ham <***@settrans.net> writes:
>>
>> > On Wed, 2016-10-19 at 09:54 +0100, Bob Ham wrote:
>> >> On Tue, 2016-10-04 at 15:58 +0200, Denis 'GNUtoo' Carikli wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > Given that Wolfgang has the Galaxy S3 and is working on porting
>> >> > Replicant to Android 6, and is also trying to mainline that device in
>> >> > Linux, I would bet on the Galaxy S3.
>> >>
>> >> I'm curious about an effort to mainline support for the S3. Could you
>> >> say how you learned about Wolfgang's effort?
>> >
>> > ping?
>>
>> Are you referring to links like these:
>>
>> http://blog.replicant.us/2016/08/replicant-6-early-work-upstream-work-and-f-droid-issue/
>>
>> https://redmine.replicant.us/boards/21/topics/12057
>
> No.
>
> I've seen both of these pages before. The first mentions the hope of
> using mainline kernel in general but doesn't mention any specific effort
> to mainline support for the S3. The second page, again, makes no
> mention of mainlining S3 support.

I'm planning to do a write-up on my efforts in the next days. In short:

The code can be found here:
https://code.fossencdi.org/kernel_i9300_mainline.git/
The changes are currently on top of the 4.8 kernel. It is far from being
usable, even if you accept the reduced functionality. The kernel boots,
adb is somewhat working with some Replicant adaptions:
https://code.fossencdi.org/device_samsung_i9300.git/log/?h=replicant-6.0-mainline
https://code.fossencdi.org/device_samsung_smdk4412-common.git/log/?h=replicant-6.0-mainline

The screen works, backlight works somewhat, suspend is buggy and the
touchscreen needs calibration, either in Android or on the driver side.
The vibrator could work with a similar Android shim that Paul wrote for
the GTA04. The modem driver needs to be ported to mainline. I did not
yet investigate what work exactly is needed to get wifi and bluetooth
working. There is actually support for the camera but I did not yet put
any effort into getting it working with Replicant. I also ignored the
sensors for now. As Replicant uses a software renderer, there is at
least no effort necessary to get graphics working as before.

There is actually a lot of support for the device in mainline compared
to most other devices. The reason is that Samsung also published Tizen
for the Galaxy S3, named Trats2, and they tried to mainline a lot in the
process.

So in summary, there is still a lot of development effort necessary and
I would be very happy about contributions. Simon Shields (aka forkbomb)
who is the maintainer for the Galaxy S3 in CyanogenMod also works on
this and helped me a lot:
https://github.com/fourkbomb/linux

Wolfgang

--
Website: https://fossencdi.org
OpenPGP: 0F30 D1A0 2F73 F70A 6FEE 048E 5816 A24C 1075 7FC4
Key download: https://wiedmeyer.de/keys/ww.asc

[Bob Ham]

On Fri, 2016-10-28 at 13:50 +0200, Wolfgang Wiedmeyer wrote:

> The code can be found here:
> https://code.fossencdi.org/kernel_i9300_mainline.git/
> The changes are currently on top of the 4.8 kernel. It is far from being
> usable, even if you accept the reduced functionality. The kernel boots

Kick ass :-)

> I did not
> yet investigate what work exactly is needed to get wifi and bluetooth
> working.

The chip needs to be reverse engineered which is a whole project in
itself. In fact it would be very good to have this because the chip,
Broadcom BCM4334, is used in a number of phones. Currently the only
WLAN chipset with free firmware is the Atheros ath9k family and they (1)
aren't used in mobile devices and (2) don't support newer standards such
as 802.11ac.

There was an effort to reverse engineer some earlier Broadcom chips:

https://lwn.net/Articles/314313/
http://netweb.ing.unibs.it/~openfwwf/

However, the resulting firmware has only ever been experimental. The
interest is from academia. For example, a 2014 paper from the OpenFWWF
authors was titled "Emitter Localisation from Reception Timestamps in
Asynchronous Networks":

http://netweb.ing.unibs.it/~openfwwf/localisation/

The purpose there is research rather than building usable free firmware.

> There is actually a lot of support for the device in mainline compared
> to most other devices. The reason is that Samsung also published Tizen
> for the Galaxy S3, named Trats2, and they tried to mainline a lot in the
> process.

Cool. The S3 gets even *more* attractive from a free software point of
view.

> So in summary, there is still a lot of development effort necessary and
> I would be very happy about contributions.

Excellent work, I look forward to hearing more. I'll see if I can't at
least test out your kernel tree at some point.

Cheers,

Bob